Discussion:
More speed confusion
(too old to reply)
Uncle Ben
2009-06-10 17:23:54 UTC
Permalink
...
The movement of a medium cannot affect the speed of light unless
there
is some sort of interaction between the atomic structure of moving
water and light that is different
to the interaction with still water. Maybe the light impacts more
water molecules per second in that case. This has nothing to do
with
relativity, it seem more like a ballistic effect.- Hide quoted
text -
- Show quoted text -
It is an electrical effect. The light, being an electromagnetic
wave,
wiggles the electrons. The electrons, being accelerated, radiate the
light, but with a phase lag. The incident light and the re-radiated
light interfere to produced a delayed composite light wave.
The slowing of the resulting light, relative to the incident light,
is
responsible for the index of refraction.
When the medium is moving, the phase of the re-radiated light is
affected. The easiest way to account for the magnitude of the effect
is to do it in a frame of reference in which the medium is at rest.
This light is moving slower than c, and when referred back to the
laboratory frame has the result predicted.
Uncle Ben
This re-radiation theory is going to complicate SRT no end. Maybe it
has.
Re-radiation means that a secondary source for the light emission
exists within the medium.
The fact the the water is moving with respect to the original source
means that movement of the source has an effect on the speed of
light contrary to popular belief. What if the source was moving at
the same velocity as the column of water? What then?
I guess the phase lag explains everything- Hide quoted text -
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Sorry to have confused you by explaining two things in the same post.
1. The index of refraction
2. The effect of a moving medium
1a. Every electrical eng9ineer knows that alternating current in a
wire makes the wire radiate electromagnetic energy. That is how radio
works. Light going through glass makes the electrons in the glass
jiggle like AC, and that makes them radiate like an antenna
1b. When light goes through glass the superposition of the incident
light and the delayed re-radiated light produces an electromagnetic
wave that moves slower than light in a vacuum.
This explains the index of refraction.
2. (This is where Androcles gets confused.) Given a slower-than-c
light wave in a medium at rest, find its speed with respect to a
laboratory speeding backward at low speed. This is where the
composition of velocites comes in.
This explains the Fizeau effect.
Now where is the difficulty you are having? (Androcles and Sue are
hoeless, but the jury is still out on you, Gehan.)
Uncle Ben
find its speed with respect to a
laboratory speeding backward at low speed
You just lost me completely there.. A light wave moves slower in a
medium
OK. If the medium moves with respect to the light wave how can it be
proof
of relativistic effects?- Hide quoted text -
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Good question.
The Fizeau effect is the effect a moving medium has on the speed of
light w.r.t. the laboratory frame in which it is moving.
The effect of a non-vacuum medium is to slow the light down.  Light
travels in water (n=4/3) only 3/4 as fast as it does in a vaccum:   v1
= c/n.  Now that we know this, the problem is, what happens to the
speed of light when the water is moving at some speed v2 that depends
on your water pressure but certainly is not relativistic.
Our friend Androcles, stuck firmly in the Eighteenth Century, would
say that the speed of light in the moving water is v1 + v2, because he
thinks that relative speeds just add together.
But in the Twenty-first Century, we know that the answer is (v1+v2)/
(1+ v1*v2/c^2), where v1 = c/n and v2 = speed of water. Work this out
and you get the right answer, according to actual measurements.
=============================================
Our  redneck Bonehead, stuck firmly in the Nineteenth Century,
is waving his hands and offering no evidence  or mathematical
derivation for his idiotic claim.
In the Twenty-first Century, we know that the answer is v1+ v2 as it
always was and in agreement with the PoR.- Hide quoted text -
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Androcles, you disappoint me. After I praised you so highly for your
close reading of Einstein's 1905 paper, it seems to have flown right
out of your head.

See Section 5, second equation. If you can't handle the notation,
consult any modern treatment of the composition of velocities.

If you've lost the reference, try

http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/specrel.pdf

Uncle Ben
G
2009-06-18 01:15:24 UTC
Permalink
How exactly can you get a frame of reference move to the
left?
Left is nomore a problem than right. What is your concern?
Ben
My concern was the moving of a reference frame /coordinate system
.-
why have two coordinate systems? Why not have one coordinate
system
and a transformation for to all moving points within the
coordinate
system?- Hide quoted text -
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Aha! Now I understand.
The word "transformation" has a special meaning in relativistic
mathematics. It refers to a set of equations that relate the known
coordinates of an event w.r.t. a given frame of referene (FoR) to
the
coordinates of the same event w.r.t. another FoR that moves w.r.t.
to
the first.
You will see many, many references to the Lorentz Transformation
(LT)
in writings on relativity, because changing FoRs is a tool for
solving
many problems more easily than you can without changing FoRs. The
LT
tells you how to do it.
The Fizeau effect is an example. You know how fast light travels
w.r.t. still water. An LT will show you how fast it moves in
running
water. It works easily.
Regards,
Ben
Tell me this, Ben, how would you set up an equivalent Fizeau
experiment with the water being still and the light source moving?
That is, achieve the same effect by moving the light source and not
the water?- Hide quoted text -
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Curious question, Gehan. You could say that all of our experiments in
the history of the world have been done with moving labs and moving
equipment.
The question is: Moving with respect to what?
All of us are moving all the time with respect to our galaxy. The sun
is whizzing along at high speed, taking us with it.
And even if it were not, the earth is whizzing along at high speed
w.r.t. the sun.
And even if it were not, the earth is spinning on its axis at a rate
that moves us 40,000 km per day in a circle, approximately.
So what exactly are you looking for?
Best wishes?
Uncle Ben- Hide quoted text -
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In SRT the a moving source has no effect on the speed of light.
Movement is relative. I can create an experiment where the water is
moving in the lab frame
and the light is stationary in the lab frame or vice versa. A moving
source according to SRT has the same effect as
as statinary source, therefore it is difficult to see how still water
will produce the Fizeau effect if the
water is stationary in the lab frame and the source if moving in
thelab frame.
Maybe Androcles can do a clever diagram for this?
======================================
I'm not interested. Real moving light sources in empty space are
FAR more interesting than Einstein's drivel. For that I draw diagrams.
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Orbit/Orbit.htm
There is no actual "tail", Mira is spherical like any other star; the
"tail" is an earlier image of the star's equatorial region travelling
at a different speed to the poles
That's fine, but you have to get a panel of real scientists to confirm
this then you will be correct. That's how science works.
For example if you could convince Uncle Ben..
What the fuck is a "real" scientist?
Surely you don't imagine in your craziness that Bonehead is
any sort of "scientist" at all, you stupid little arsehole?
Piss off, you insulting deadbeat animal, I'm not helping you any further,
you are worthless and ignorant beyond all credibility.
*plonk*
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I hope you find this explanation is satisfactory but even if you don't,
damnly my frank, I don't give a dear. Have a nice day.
Ah the deadly plonk. Thanks for you help :)

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